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Proficiencies

Postby ngc7293 » Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:23 am

I noticed that many of the Martial classes like the Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger Cavalier and others have Exotic weapons listed in their Weapon proficencies when they shouldn't. They have the Katana, the Dwarven Waraxe, the Bastard sword. Some have spell(ray) and spell(touch) when they have no ability to cast spells. The Monk is one of these.

I wouldn't have noticed this had I not seen the Rock proficiency(?!?)

I have not checked all the books, but I figured the ones with Released at the end would be more important.

I was using 6.06.01 and hoped that it was all fixed in 6.07.01 but I was wrong.

I am guessing this isn't an important issue. Most people have the books and use PCGEN as a guide.

Still having the wrong proficiencies might be confusing.
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Re: Proficiencies

Postby LegacyKing » Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:43 am

Hi,

We have Cleric and Paladin test units that would be failing if the proficiencies granted in pathfinder changed. I'll check this out, but I have the feeling I will not be able to reproduce this discrepancy. Can you supply a broken character to HELP@PCGEN.ORG?

Thanks,


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Re: Proficiencies

Postby Distant Scholar » Sun Mar 19, 2017 5:54 pm

Be aware that the bastard sword and the dwarven waraxe (and possibly the katana) can be used two-handed as martial weapons. That may be the proficiency you're seeing.


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Re: Proficiencies

Postby LegacyKing » Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:29 pm

Distant Scholar - You're right, all of those weapons are TWO-HANDED Martial Weapons. Exotic Proficiency in them merely allows a One-Handed option.

Thanks for that catch.

Rock proficiency is added cause I probably listed it as a Simple. Easy enough to fix I suppose. That was an addition years ago to fix Giants and the attack bonus being calculated wrong.


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Re: Proficiencies

Postby ngc7293 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:38 am

Distant Scholar wrote:Be aware that the bastard sword and the dwarven waraxe (and possibly the katana) can be used two-handed as martial weapons. That may be the proficiency you're seeing.


The Dwarven Waraxe and Bastard Sword can be used two handed but they are listed in the books as Exotic weapons. No where in the Core rule book can you get either weapon as a Martial two-handed weapon. When you get proficiency in either of them, you need Exotic Weapon Proficiency.

The Katana is an Exotic weapon and nothing else. It is not listed in the Core rule book or the Advanced Players Guide. It is in Ultimate Combat in the EXOTIC section.

I make a quick fighter with the core rule book only and the Katana still showed up. I guess I will email it.

Anyway, the D&D/Pathfinder rules are sound. I can put this to the Paizo.com forum if you want. Lots of people have asked about using a Bastard sword one handed without proficiency. Yet the game books show them as exotic weapons only.
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Re: Proficiencies

Postby LegacyKing » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:55 am

I think you missed this in the Core Rule book page 149:

Sword, Bastard: A bastard sword is about 4 feet in length,
making it too large to use in one hand without special
training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A character can use a
bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.


Waraxe, Dwarven: A dwarven waraxe has a large, ornate
head mounted to a thick handle, making it too large to use
in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic
weapon. A Medium character can use a dwarven waraxe
two-handed as a martial weapon
, or a Large creature
can use it one-handed in the same way. A dwarf treats a
dwarven waraxe as a martial weapon even when using it in
one hand.


I'm not going to pull up the quote for Katana, but it basically says a Katana is treated as a Bastard sword... Hence, a character with MARTIAL WEAPON PROFICIENCY is proficient with those weapons as long as they use the weapons Two-Handed.

Cheers,


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Re: Proficiencies

Postby LegacyKing » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:03 am

I lied, here is the Katana write-up, UC 131:

Katana: Specifically constructed for samurai, katanas
employ multiple types of steel combined in a distinctive
forging process. The result are swords noted for their
wickedly sharp yet slender, gently curved blades, designed
to make graceful hacking strokes capable of severing
opponents’ heads and limbs. Though finely balanced, these
blades are difficult to master. Characters can use a katana
two-handed as a martial weapon, but must take the Exotic
Weapon Proficiency (katana) feat to use it one-handed.


AS to the fact it shows up if you only load the core rule book, that was a matter of convenience in coding it. Since Katana is referenced in multiple books outside of Ultimate Combat and Ultimate Equipment, specifically Bestiary, Bestiary 3, Advanced Race Guide, Advanced Class Guide, Dragon Empires Gazetteer, Inner Sea Races, Dragon Empires Primer, it just made life easier to include it as a proficiency.


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Re: Proficiencies

Postby ngc7293 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:04 am

I am not disputing that you can us a weapon with two hands.
What I am saying is that there is no Martial proficiency slot for the above weapons.

The Bastard Sword can't take the Martial Weapon Proficiency AND the Exotic Weapon Proficiency. It is listed under EWP only.
The same goes for the other two.

In your own program you have to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency for Bastard Sword, or Katana, or Dwarven Battle Axe.

Martial Weapon Proficiency doesn't (or shouldn't ) give you two handed use of the above weapons.
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Re: Proficiencies

Postby LegacyKing » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:42 am

Let's look at your concern:

You state that there is no Martial Weapon Proficiency slot for Katana, Bastard Sword and Dwarven Axe.

This is an incorrect assumption when you read this statement from the Katana: Characters can use a katana two-handed as a martial weapon, but must take the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (katana) feat to use it one-handed. That is very succinctly stating that yes, there are two slots. Bastard Sword and Dwarven Axe have similar text, but not as clearly written as the Katana.

To recap, in 3.5 edition and Pathfinder, weapons fall into one of three categories - SIMPLE, MARTIAL and EXOTIC. In the instance of Katana, Bastard Sword and Dwarven Axe, they fall into two categories - Martial & Exotic. Exotic unlocks full mastery of the weapon, by allowing the character to use the weapon as One-Handed, instead of Two-Handed. Ergo, these weapons DO have two Proficiencies - A martial slot, and an Exotic slot. Using a chart to classify these weapons is a fallacy, since the descriptive text clarifies the operational rules of the weapon.

Secondly, Proficiency in a weapon negates the Non-Weapon Proficiency penalty imposed by the game system. Since the character is Proficient, they do not get a -4 penalty to using the weapon in combat. That is the definition of being proficient.

In summary, all three weapons ARE classified as Martial Proficiency weapons. Any character can take them as a Martial Proficiency Weapon using the Feat of the same name, and Martial classes automatically have proficiency with those same weapons. The only difference in taking the Exotic Weapon Proficiency for those weapons, is allowing the wielder to use those weapons in One Hand.

As a side note, the PCGen program allows a character to choose any of those weapons if they take the Martial Weapon Proficiency feat. Though, it would be foolish to waste a feat to gain the lower form, when taking the exotic weapon proficiency version is clearly a superior option. It has also been noted that the Cleric War domain grants the highest proficiency allowed for a weapon, such as a Bastard Sword.


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